![[personal profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/user.png){kind=small}
llywelaCatching up on outstanding recaps, since I've had a little bit of time on my hands - not much but enough. This one got pretty ridiculously long, again, but it's not my fault, I swear! There's just too much to say, too much to analyse! Also, I think, I kind of argued myself around in circles just as much as Sam does in this episode.
So, without any further ado, here goes: one recap in which I rattle on at length about the circular structure of the episode, Sam's hallucinations and what they reveal about his tormented subconscious and tangled motivations, Dean's desperation to save his brother, Bobby's ever stalwart support, Ruby's machinations, Castiel's manipulations, that heartbreaking final scene, and much more besides.
To read the recap, click the link below:
"I mean, they come on like shady politicians from Planet Vulcan!"
Screencaps found at Screencap Paradise and![[livejournal.com profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/external/lj-userinfo.gif)
marishna
And now we shall wait and see if I actually manage to get the finale written up before the new season starts!
So, without any further ado, here goes: one recap in which I rattle on at length about the circular structure of the episode, Sam's hallucinations and what they reveal about his tormented subconscious and tangled motivations, Dean's desperation to save his brother, Bobby's ever stalwart support, Ruby's machinations, Castiel's manipulations, that heartbreaking final scene, and much more besides.
To read the recap, click the link below:
"I mean, they come on like shady politicians from Planet Vulcan!"
Screencaps found at Screencap Paradise and
marishnaAnd now we shall wait and see if I actually manage to get the finale written up before the new season starts!
![[identity profile]](https://www.dreamwidth.org/img/silk/identity/openid.png){kind=small}
no subject
Date: 2009-08-25 09:38 am (UTC)for some reason much of fandom seems to insist that Dean be held accountable for things he had almost no control over, especially Sam's actions.
Oh, tell me about it! Way to deny Sam his much-desired agency, for one thing! Plus...I have known my share of addicts, and that excuse is always trotted out - it was someone else's fault for not treating them right, for upsetting them, for being angry with them - never their own fault for making that choice. What's Dean supposed to do? Never get angry with Sam again in case he falls off the wagon? Never disagree with Sam again in case it upsets him and he falls off the wagon? Bottom line, Sam was wrong and Dean was within his rights to say so. He did so remarkably gently for much of that conversation, given how deeply distressed he was. But Sam didn't like what Dean had to say, and goaded him to anger rather than being willing to listen. That one is on Sam, who made a very clear choice, based on the compulsion of his addiction and his screwed-up justifications, rather than on Dean, who was doing his best.
Bobby made perfect sense to me in this episode. He was trying hard to support both brothers as best he could, playing devil's advocate, making sure Dean was absolutely sure in his decision and had considered all options. And then when he knew for sure that Dean was certain, he got behind his decision 100%.
I'm curious about what you think of his speech to Dean in Lucifer Rising.
Ah. Hmm. I'm actually just starting on writing up that scene right now! I'm very much in two minds about it. On the one hand, I can see exactly what Bobby was trying to do there, and why, and I love him for it. But on the other hand, I have big issues with the wording of his speech - not all of it, but some, because it ties in with things that other people have said to Dean, Sam and Zachariah, and all adds up to create a very unbalanced view of his time in hell and how he reacted to it. And I'm unhappy about that, because I feel that Dean's post-hell storyline wanot done justice at all this season - the writers decided to use it for this very specific mytharc storyline, the torturing and breaking of the Seal, but didn't want to have to deal with the psychological impact of having been tortured for as long as he was. I think they chickened out, and I'm always going to be disappointed about it.
It definitely came off as calculated and premeditated to show Dean just who had the power and that he, Sam, had all the control, in that moment.
It really does, doesn't it, and that sends out really disturbingly abusive vibes that make me really uncomfortable! I bet they never talk about it again, either!
I also would like to see some fall-out over the betrayal but I do think that will probably be swept under the rug since Castiel came through in the end for Dean and ended up sacrificing himself to help Dean stop Sam. To bad it was too little too late.
I so want there to be consequences! I want it known that the brothers weren't the only ones to get their hands dirty, that Castiel's actions led directly to the breaking of that final Seal, and he alone out of the three of them does not have the excuse of not knowing what he was doing. He knew exactly what he was doing. And if we are going to be stuck with him, then his character needs to grow, and facing up to the consequences of his actions and learning from them needs to play a part in that!
Well, time will tell, I suppose!
I'm working on Lucifer Rising, but it's slow going - so much to do, so little time! I'm hoping it'll be up before the new season, but only time will tell there, too *G*
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 02:30 am (UTC)Yes exactly. I'll admit that I find the many of these opinions very contradictory because it seems like the same folks who say Sam is a grown up and should be able to make his own decisions without Dean telling him what to do, tend to be the same ones who blame Dean for not trying hard enough to stop Sam from falling prey to Ruby's manipulations. I don't see how they can have it both ways. But I guess we all have our own interpretations of the show and the characters. Personally I want Sam to be a grown up and take full responsibility for his actions, not so much the whole Lucifer thing, but how really shabbily he treated Dean this year. I think it would show tremendous growth if he did some serious self-reflection about how he views Dean and whether or not he really understand who his brother is.
Yeah, I do think the major point of Bobby's speech was that Dean needed to be a better man than John. But I really think it got lost in all the other ranting and name-calling. It felt really OOC to me and not even remotely the same Bobby from AHBL2 or Lazarus Rising who genuinely seemed to understand Dean and cared about him as an individual and not just as the guy whose responsibility it is to keep the family together at any cost. Maybe Bobby was possessed by John's ghost or something. ;-)
Usually I think Kripke does some of the best characterization on the show but I think that scene was quite badly written and directed.
I also agree that Dean's PTSD got really shabby treatment and as you suggest, the writers never really committed to it. I also think they couldn't decide if they wanted Dean to actually be as damaged as Sam kept insisting or if they wanted Sam to be completely delusional on the issue to subtly show how much he had changed since Dean's death. So they kept telling us one thing and showing us another and really none of it ended up making much sense for Dean as a character.
I also have to say that the way they resolved the PTSD by basically having Zach tell Dean to suck it up and stop whining and then continuing to reiterate that Dean having any sort feelings at all about his various traumas (including being strangled by his brother) was a sign of weakness, was pretty insulting to real PTSD survivors.
TBC
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 02:30 am (UTC)Yes that's a very good point. Castiel knew, at least by The Rapture, what was going on and made his decisions with full knowledge. But I think one thing to keep in mind, and not to let him off the hook too much, but free will is not a luxury that humans and angels share. Angels, in my understanding, are designed to obey and so I'm not sure Castiel realized he had a choice until Dean convinced him otherwise. The other thing that occurred to me is, for angels, the apocalypse leads to paradise on earth so again, I think Castiel was trying to convince himself that in the long run, he was following God's plan.
Personally I think that in siding with Dean, Sam and humanity, Castiel is following God's plan but I guess we will have to wait and see it that's true or not.
Anyway, once again I've really enjoyed reading your thoughts on our little show. It really is much deeper than most people outside of fandom realize. :D
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 02:44 pm (UTC)Mwahahah, I know the feeling well. It scares me how long my recaps tend to get these days!
Angels, in my understanding, are designed to obey and so I'm not sure Castiel realized he had a choice until Dean convinced him otherwise.
It's true...but also deeply frustrating because we had already seen him learn that lesson once, in On The Head Of A Pin, so regress him back to square one just so he could learn the same lesson all over again feels terribly circular (plus I'm never going to forgive The Rapture for pushing all meaningful character development either to the fringes or off-screen entirely). I just hope we see some solid forward development for him next season, rather than continuing to go around and around in circles.
It really is much deeper than most people outside of fandom realize. :D
Ain't that the truth! Too many people look at the surface only...
Thanks again for stopping to chat - I'm always happy to talk Show *G*
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 05:21 pm (UTC)Ah I see what you mean and yes I agree.
I guess overall, that didn't bother me too much because the set up was Anna telling us that disobeying was Heaven's equivalent of Murder 1 so it makes sense that Zachariah or whoever is in charge, would reign Castiel in before he went to far down that path. I think it would take more than Dean's pretty face and a personal appeal to save Sam, to sway a being who has spent thousands of years simply obeying orders without questioning. It was the fate of humanity, I think, that finally swayed Castiel over.
But I'm totally with you in that I hope they don't do the one step forward, three steps back thing with Castiel after this. He seems to have made his choice and I would like to see them follow-through on that with some dire consequences.
As you can see, so do I. LOL!
I have enjoyed our conversation. Do you mind if I friend you?
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 05:30 pm (UTC)I have enjoyed our conversation. Do you mind if I friend you?
Me too, and absolutely - I love making new friends who are as wordy as me *G*
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 05:50 pm (UTC)no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 02:37 pm (UTC)*nods* One of the saddest things about this year was seeing the brothers coming so, so close to breaking out of that rut they are in, only to fall right back into it again. I got so hopeful mid-season when for the very first time we saw Sam being the one to compromise, when he sat down and told Dean what he did last summer (but alas only the abridged version, only we didn't know it at the time) and that gave Dean the confidence he needed to open up in turn about hell, which Sam had been pestering him about for a few episodes. That confession was the greatest measure of trust Dean had ever placed in Sam...and Sam bottled it, essentially. And that disappoints me so much, for Sam's sake. It was what he had wanted and worked toward for years, getting Dean to trust him enough with the very worst of his pain, and he was so sure he would be strong enough to help carry the load, but then when it came to the crunch he just couldn't do it. He tried, for a little while...but it was just so much easier to sidetrack himself with thoughts of revenge than to give Dean what he actually needed, which was emotional support so that he could heal.
Ah, boys. It'll be interesting to see where they go from here.
Usually I think Kripke does some of the best characterization on the show but I think that scene was quite badly written and directed.
Yes. It's hard to recap, because I can see what he was trying to do, and can rationalise Bobby's state of mind not lending itself to tact, and he's no psychotherapist at the best of times, but...the way the scene plays feels as if we are supposed to agree with Bobby that Dean is being a whiny little princess wallowing in unjustified self-pity, but he really, really isn't. The brother he died and went to hell for just tried to kill him, that coming on top of years and years of accumulated trauma. If anyone was ever justified in having a complete emotional breakdown, it is Dean - it is frankly a miracle he's as functional as he is.
Meh. Yeah, Dean's post-hell storyline was a big disappointment, on the whole, and I'm always going to regret that because there was so much potential there - and honestly, what is the point of doing such an awful thing to your character if you aren't going to follow through on it? But ah well, what's done is done I suppose, alas.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 05:08 pm (UTC)Yes this is exactly what I don't get and I'll admit, I've asked this question a few times in a few different places. If Kripke wanted us to agree with Bobby's POV on Dean, which it seems he did, then why have Sam's actions be so extreme? Sam could have just walked out with trying to strangle Dean first. But his final act sets up the viewer sympathy for Dean, which is fine. But then the pay-off is that Dean gets told to quit over-reacting? It just doesn't make sense.
Same goes for the Hell-trauma. Why make Dean a torturer in Hell and less of a manly man than Daddy Dearest, if the final pay off is suck up your Daddy issues and quit whining?
There's such a huge disconnect for me between the set-up and the resolution and I really don't understand what the point of it all is. It's doubly disappointing because in past seasons, despite plotholes and dubious writing, I thought the emotional arcs (especially for Dean) were incredibly well done. Everything up to Dean choosing to go to Hell rather than let Sam risk his soul by using his powers, made perfect sense to me. But all that remarkable lead up just fizzled with the way the writers turned it all back on Dean as if he had spent the last four years throwing temper tantrums instead repeatedly sacrificing himself for the good of his family. I dunno, it's just puzzling.
Sorry I know that sounds very, very critical and I don't mean to be because overall I have loved where they've brought Dean as a character and I have to say that season 4 is still my favorite. But it's these little character details that stop this show from reaching it's full potential, in my opinion.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-26 05:24 pm (UTC)I get the impression, though, that they really didn't think it through in depth. They sent Dean to hell more for the shock value than anything else, and then didn't have any clear vision for where to go after that. Sam's arc for the season was already pretty much mapped out - an elongated version of what they had originally intended for S3, pre-strike, but Dean actually going to hell had never been in the game plan. So they came up with this creative way of getting him out and tying him to the mytharc, but from there on out they were just making it up as they went along, and got so carried away with the excitement of the shiny new toys they'd given themselves in the form of angels and apocalypse, Dean's story kinda got lost along the way. Over the course of the season, his progression is very stop-start, jumping around all over the place. The writing is inconsistent - it shows that JA had no clear idea of where the character was going. And it's disappointing, because the character had always been so well served before, and deserved a hell of a lot better.
A friend of mine, glathea_snb, recently wrote a lengthy retrospective of S4, and basically summarised everything I think about it - http://galathea-snb.livejournal.com/47959.html#cutid1
no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 04:38 am (UTC)Yes I think you're right in many ways. Your friend made the very the excellent point that they spent too much time focusing on Dean as torturer rather than Dean being tortured which robbed him and the other characters of the opportunity to show him any real sympathy.
I also think part of the reason for this is because they really could not come up with a realistic way for Dean to express what really happened while he was a victim and then have him pick up his shotgun and go hunt down the next demon. Fixing that would likely require institutionalization and years of therapy, so they basically just went la-la-la, we're not talking about that anymore.
The other thing I think, is that by the time they revealed Dean's memories, they were gearing up for Sam's downward spiral. As it was, Sam would already look unsympathetic for becoming more and more disdainful of his brother, so they couldn't have it happen at the same time that Dean was suddenly having flashbacks of being dismembered or raped, etc. Sam being unable to show sympathy for that would have made him completely unredeemable in many people's eyes. As it is, I think the blood addiction storyline was their get-out-of-jail-free card when it came to the break down between the brothers.
I think there was an issue of pacing here where they took too long to reveal Dean's time in hell. If they had moved that reveal up, there would have been time to let Sam show some comfort before he started drinking blood again and started to get all twisted up and resentful of his brother.
I guess we'll never really know for sure but it is fun to speculate. ;)
no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 07:50 pm (UTC)The pacing issue I tend to feel basically comes down to them not really knowing which direction to take the story in at first. I absolutely cannot and will never believe that Dean returned from hell with all his memories intact - there is absolutely no way that the man who crawled out of that grave and was collected enough to find the nearest sign of civilisation from which to steal supplies, break into the till, leer at a girlie magazine, recall telephone numbers, was coming fresh off 40 years of unimaginable torture that he remembered in intimate detail. No way did he remember what he had been through. JA certainly believed the amnesia was genuine and played it that way. And yet...there is no clear progression from there to total recall, so we are left not knowing how to understand his storyline in those early episodes.
So frustrating. Badly done, Show! Let us hope for a more character-focused season five!
no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 02:17 pm (UTC)I agree with you about Castiel and Dean's post-hell storyline.
no subject
Date: 2009-08-27 07:56 pm (UTC)Kinda frustrating, no, that so much of fandom is determined to take sides, rather than being willing to try to understand each and every character and sympathise with each of their positions - at the same time as recognising and acknowledging the mistakes they make.